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slybobs7 #3237

Hello,

So as I've never created my own lore or anything I was wondering if this idea is possible before I slap on some paint.

Here the idea,

A Guard unit that pulls from a Dark Angels recruitment world planetary defense force so they would fall under what ever sector command structure, but when ever the Dark Angels need a guard unit they call in these guys. So they are honored by the Dark Angels by being allowed to take there colours (dark green armour with red weapons). So If the Dark Angels get word of a fallen they would call in (Name) guard to hold the line or start the fight while they hunt.

Now is there any where I could gather thoughts on this like how people have the sheets to create Astartes Chapters.
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Pharia #3238

Sounds perfectly fine. Make some back story to them;) concerning lore and astartes usseing "humans or guardsmen" Is a rather wierd place, especially with some chapters who find humans worthless :p

Dark angels are a cautious chapter, especially becouse of theyre secrets concerning the fallen and stuff:p But useing a guard regiment for simple tasks is not uncomme for many chapters aswell (more like they just take command over the local regiment in the sector). Another reason for astartes not useing guards in theyre battle tactics is that they are just to slow and not trained well enough for the way of war that the astartes are useing :p but they are used as decoys or just to slow the enemy down as the astartes do precision attacks, taking out command structures and just being spec ops:p

Lots of rambling:p But ye I could see a dark angels company useing a guard regiment as a support "unit" for some battles were the guns of the guard is more needed than the plasma and blitz tactics from the dark angels. (Lore wise the astra militarum and the astartes are two completely different branches of the empire, that normally has nothing to do with one other except coming together on a battlezone, but its perfectly plausible since astartes chapter's usually just do what they like and give xxxxxxxx to most of the empire rules out there if they disagre with those said rules, and most of the times are allowed to do so by law.... Mostly :p )

Would love to hearing about the backstory for em when you made it :D love the idea. Throw in a dark angels baneblade in the future :D probably needed to be the plasma variant though Plasma blastgun <3 on the tabletop having astra militarum tanks and artillery is a huge tactical boon as the leman russ is probably the best point wise heavy mbt compared to the other imperial tanks. The artillery is allso really good for what they cost. Would be really cool useing that type of mixed force in a crusade type game :D I have thought a little about doing it when me and my battlebud gets to 2k points + games :D
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pawl #3242

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Okay, time for a history ramble! 😁 This could be a long one, but hopefully it'll be worth it.


Alright! At the end of the Horus Heresy changes were made by Roboute Guilliman to ensure that no individual could ever again wield enough power to be a significant threat to the Imperium.
The Imperial Army was divided into the Imperial Navy (air and space) and the Astra Militarum (ground), the latter of which was further divided so that individual regiments were specialised. This ensured that no single Militarum commander had enough tactical flexibility to be truly dangerous, and that they also didn't have their own transport to move that hypothetical danger around.
The Legions of the Adeptus Astartes were broken down into Chapters, though most already used Chapters within their formation. A Chapter (assuming adherence to the newly-written Codex Astartes) would consist of approximately 1000 space marines divided into ten Companies of 100. In practice even an adherent Chapter may have more than this number however, as recruits in the Scout company often number more than their allotted 100 to mitigate the effects of casualties.

Prior to the Heresy it wasn't uncommon for Space Marine Legions and the Imperial Army to 'coexist', however this was also forbidden for the reason stated above.
Lufgt Huron of the Astral Claws rather famously combined his own Chapter with others, and drew on human elements in order to bolster the size of his forces with the aim of building a Legion. Feel free to look up the Badab War to read about the results!


So! As it stands a Chapter Master is limited in how strong his forces can be by the High Lords of Terra, but do they listen? Well, kind of.
On the face of things most chapters play by the rules, though sometimes the spirit if not the letter. Others however push the boundaries, and others still simply do as they please (usually with bad results, as above).

All Chapters have their warships and fortresses manned by Chapter Serfs, both for administrative duties and defense. These Serfs may simply be human, but they may also be Aspirants that failed the tests required to join the Chapters' Scout Company. Because they are required in defensive duties against enemy actions these serfs are trained and equipped to at least the standard of the Astra Militarum, though often to a much further degree. Some Chapters have been known to field their serfs in battle, which would definitely be pushing boundaries!
There is also the case of the Ultramarines. The 500 Worlds of Ultramar all maintain a Planetary Defense Force, which are answerable to the Regent of Ultramar, who in turn answers directly to the Ultramarines Chapter Master. Technically the combined PDF are not part of the Ultramarines' military forces thanks to a little political obfuscation, but we all know the truth!
There are also some Chapters (usually those that retained their Legion name at the time of the Second Founding) that maintain questionably-close ties to their Successors. Feel free to read up on the likes of the Last Wall Protocol (Dorn/Imperial Fists) or the Unforgiven (Lion el'Jonson/Dark Angels).


Now, how does this affect you?
As we've discussed at least briefly, an Astartes Chapter cannot have a direct relationship with a Militarum regiment. The Dark Angels in particular are - as you know - incredibly secretive, and the idea of sharing in the Hunt would be unquestionable. Indeed, the Dark Angels have been known to leave the field of battle (often at huge loss of life to their allied human or Astartes forces) without notice in order to persue a potential Fallen lead. Having a Militarum regiment (and the required Imperial Navy contingent) would simply slow them down as they cannot mobilise as fast as the Astartes can, and in by Hunt speed is of the essence. Additionally, the Dark Angels operate on many fronts in small 'strike teams', so a single regiment would be of very limited use.
A Chapter does have serfs which are sometimes fielded in battle (usually defense), however to my knowledge the Dark Angels are not known to do this.
There is also the option of PDF, perhaps of a world the Dark Angels recruit from. While they typically recruit from feudal worlds (like Caliban was for the coming of the Lion and the Emperor) I'm sure that some are more modern, and would maintain a more modern military force.
Or you could simply say "they're DA Guard" - at the end of the day you can do whatever you want to, but be prepared for people to tell you you're 'wrong'!


Apologies if that was a bit long (and I hope it didn't drag), but if you want I can expand on any of the above. =]
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Pharia #3265

True true. Though you have some chapters but not DA, who aren't following the codex. Templars for instance, though they have theyre ways of getting around the decree and reorganising from girlyman:p ofc being close to the imperial Church makes them somewhat of a touchy subject me thinks;p
But pawl is correct, way back pre heresy era it was more normal for astartes and "humans" to be combined in an army. Astartes even had titans at the ready. This ofc was a weakness for the imperium as a whole as Horus was a prime excample of:p Though one of the biggest weaknesses in that same reorganisation is that the imperium doesn't have a big crushing army, since no-one really are working together in a good way, but then again if someone would turn renegade they aren't in controll of a all conquering force either. The inquisition and the paper pushers in the imperium doesn't like anybody who doesn't follow the rules in theyre system and will act if they find any scrutiny:p If you wanted to make a guard regiment who was a part of DA I would make it a Successor chapter if you wanted to be more "correct" and make em a crusading chapter or something or someone who is not a heretic ofc (though being DA you could even go that way:p) but in the grey concerning the codex astartes and rules of the imperium. Or making the guard a defence force as girlyman has done himself..... That guy...... :p
But in the end its your story and your force ;) there are tons of books out there as you probably know and a good bunch of audio books aswell, they are good fun to read. And will make the story part easier if you wanted to get ideas. I would recommend the heresy era books, aswell as the new ones though they are mostly about ultramarines Nd girlymans exploits vs nurgle and some necron encounters, but they are good stuff if you like the reading part.
Ps @pawl do you know if black templars has a fighting force of "humans" with them on some of those crusades of theyres.... Or are they purely astartes in those crusade fleets?
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James #3318

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Enjoying reading this guys! Curious to see where you take it sly!
One thing that popped into my head.. Perhaps this guard regiment is the last guard regiment to be recruited/founded from Caliban before its destruction (aware this may not be possible historically speaking but hey you can do what you want!). And therefore while not part of the dark angels, the regiment is looked favourably on by the dark angels and work together more often. Perhaps the regiment is quite small thinking Gaunts Ghosts stuff here too so more likely to seconded to assist astartes 🤔
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pawl #3319

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The Caliban Jaegers did exist in the canon, but whether they were purely PDF or also contributed to the Crusade I honestly can't remember. A very fast Google search didn't provide anything, but I'll keep looking.

From what I recall (been a while since I read a DA novel they wore dark green uniforms even when the First wore black, but they were wiped out during the destruction of Caliban.
In the ten thousand years since I would be surprised if any remain - losses would have to be replenished from non-Calibanite sources, assuming that they weren't simply broken up and redistributed amongst other regiments or the Legion didn't recall and remove them from the picture (can't be too sure when even the Astartes are traitors!). It's not impossible, but highly unlikely I would say.
In more modern times the Rock is of course a purely Astartes vessel, and any humans would be serfs.


Ed: @Pharia - my knowledge of the Black Templars is quite limited if I'm honest. I know that their Neophytes aren't formed into a 10th Scout Company, instead learning directly from a fully fledged marine. This means that they are seen accompanying individual Marines as part of their squad - a Tactical squad for example might comprise 10 Astartes in full plate, and 5 in Scout armour.
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Pharia #3321

@pawl yes. They allso are quite numerous for a space marine chapter. Don't think anyone really know how many they are in reality, only the high marshal knows but its pointed that it could be close to or even more than a legion if all theyre crusades would converge somewhere ^^ This ofc goes completely against big blues codex astartes guidelines/rules. They allso are one of the few chapters who believe quite strongly that the emperor is a God instead of just a "uniquely giftet human". Would be a fun read if ultramarines and BT would meet at a bar hahah :p But as pointed out in the new books concerning girlyman and hes wars (8th edition lore), he won't dear touch the church part and going against the Ecclesiarchy in any way. Though giving him quite a headache aswell :p
There are other chapters who go against the codex and the high Lords but are mostly snuffed out or branded heretics or something by the Inquisition. And either whiped out by the imperium who they defend haha, or become renegades in imperial eyes even though they still defend humanity ^^
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slybobs7 #3330

Ok, so my idea still isn't flushed out but this might solve the issue of how they are dark angels and would have ships (this may be a copout)

The warp

So during the great crusade at the start of the heresy or just as they found out about the fallen so they could be trusted.
A large fleet of militarum with a small contingent of dark angels were heading some where and we're thought lost in one the the many new warp storms only to (ironically) come back into real space close to the rock.
I have some Dark Angels Legion Inner Circle Knights Cenobium that I was going to paint black like the lion and say they were in sleep next to the lion as they were his personal guard then and would not be woken until the lion was (they were like statues around the room or something) they could also work as the squad with these guys.
They would refuse being transferred stating they owe a life debt to the angels and would protect the rock as it's planetary defense force, or the defense force of a important dark angels world.
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Pharia #3331

This could work in a way....
Say the dark angels would keep this a secret (since they already are very good at that :p ) from the imperium ^^
Allso just a small part of the dark angels chapter wiuld know about them aswell. Dunno when you get to the point of having baneblades with darkangels and stuff (like a really big astra militarum detatchment:p Since that would be noticed by the wrong people of the imperium), but im seeing some cool crusades even stemming from another space marine chapter battling your guys or even the inquisition sending out something, only to be attacked by [insert chaors force or xenos force] and your guys saving theyre butts from said xenos. Thereby letting them off the hook so to speak, though just for a short while. You could even make em a splinter part of dark angels in the end. Loads of roads you coulf take, but if you wanted to be true to the lore. You would need to tackle how the imperium would respond when they found out ^^
Cool stuff :D love it.
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pawl #3349

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Not sure how I missed your reply, but I did!

The Knights Cenobium should be black anyway, so that works nicely. They existed during the Crusade/Heresy, when the Dark Angels still wore black armour across the Legion. The Knights themselves were actually temporary units comprising members of the various DA Orders, each of which specialised in a particular method of warfare. The idea that they would have been in seclusion with the Lion however would really push the fluff - none know of the Lion's interment in the Rock save the Emperor and the Lion himself, who has yet to surface.


If I might make an alternative suggestion?

I've not yet researched exactly how this would work, particularly the prevalence of warp storms (and their timing) near the Rock, how a warp-lost human force would be welcomed, or how lost Chapter members would be.
You could perhaps say that a combined strike force had been created for a particular threat - big enough to warrant not only Astartes attention but also that of the Cenobium. En route they were lost to the Warp, only to re-emerge millenia later into the modern Imperium.

You could perhaps have their starting point not at the Rock, as the Rock was used mainly as a recruiting station, with the majority of those leaving being reinforcements rather than senior members of the Chapter. Instead you could choose any of the theatres in which the First operated during the Crusade/Heresy.

Now like I said, I need to do a little research here. If an Imperial Army regiment were to suddenly emerge from the Warp 10,000 years after entering it (as we know, time is merely a concept in the warp, and for them it could have been as little as a few hours travel!) I don't know how the Imperium would react. Would they be taken in for questioning/interrogation? Destroyed as a potential threat? Broken down and incorporated into other units?
I don't know offhand of any such instances occuring before in the lore, but I'll see what I can find.

More difficult would be the Astartes themselves. The Dark Angels would certainly have some questions to ask (and some answers to give) but they too might simply let the Interrogators loose to see if the returning fleet was loyal, from which little of value is likely to be left.
We also have to consider whether (if their loyalty was easily established) the Chapter would bring them back into the fold. There are secrets that would usually be withheld for decades at least, and if this force contains the Cenobium then it has senior battle brothers who would ordinarily know these secrets. Would Azrael perhaps send them off as a successor? Keeping their existence a secret would not be beyond him, but what of their ancient and priceless wargear? And what of the humans who accompanied them, who would be much more difficult to hide?

You could maybe say that the fleet has only just emerged from the Warp, perhaps in a region of space that's sparsely populated like the Eastern Fringe. While Ultramar lies that way the majority is unexplored and the Astronomican is weak, so the fleet could exist for some time without detection. This would allow you to bypass all of the "how would they react" questions.


Have you given any thoughts to the modelling at all? If you wanted to stay true to the lore you could use 30k Astartes models in old plate patterns (black, of course!) and run them as counts-as firstborn. This would also be a good way to accidentally collect a 30k force!
You would also have to consider the guard - would you want to change their armour or weapons at all to show that they're older designs? I learned a while ago from @Lovecraft0110 that in 30k Leman Russes couldn't have sponson weapons, as I assume they simply hadn't designed/found the STCs for them at that point.

Edit: thinking about it that would discount your Primaris DA. Maybe a rogue trader in the Eastern Fringe caught sight of Angels in ancient black plate battling the aliens that had descended on the world he was doing business with. A fragment of that information found its way back to the Rock, and a force was sent to investigate? It's not outside the realms of possibility that they would end up sharing a battlefield, but that then brings us dangerously close to the 'reaction' questions we want to avoid!


Edit: I asked over on @Lovecraft0110's Patreon Discord about the differences between modern and Crusade era human forces.
Using the Cadians is fine, as armour (and to an extent weapon) patterns varied greatly, so there's no reason they couldn't have existed then.
The Cadian plastics however have the Imperialis (winged skull) on their weapons and helmets, which is historically 'wrong', so you might want to shave those off. The use of the Aquila (two headed eagle) however is still perfectly fine.
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